But a photography degree isn't a piece of paper saying you could, its a piece of paper saying this person has spent 3 years generating work, projects, critical theories, and knows how to use many different mediums within the umbrella of photography...

Same goes for many degrees, its a way of showing potential employers - that you can do what you say you can do. Why waste 20 years climbing a wall when you can prove in 3 that you have the mental ability to do something, the experience is all part of learning and maturing.

People who haven't been to uni shouldn't try to put those who are thinking of going off, I've not got a degree at the moment, and I've worked, doing s*** jobs that I've despised, thats why I've spent my inheritance to go back and get one of these so called useless degrees.....all of my friends from school have their degrees and they are leading the lives they want with the careers they want. I will get the same.

Don't be put off Polo, you go for what you want!

Thats what ALL degrees are, papers to say you are qualified, NOT that you have the experience because you dont! Look at Doctors etc.. they dont just pass exams and start on people do they? They have to have MUCH practical experience BEFORE being allowed to practice. If people want to do degrees then fine, Im saying there IMO is no substitute for experience.

Dawn - you've given a great example how qualification and experience are inseparable. Don't you think that Doctors do any practical work during their studies to qualify as a medical practitioner? Surely you don't think they 'qualify' before dealing with patients?

This debate shouldn't be focussed on EITHER vs OR. Further education and experience are intrinsically inseparable; you simply cant have undergone HE/FE without gaining in the latter.

Taking your example a stage further - a Doctor in training will be mentored and under supervision while gaining clinical experience while under the watchful eye of a qualified and experienced Doctor - so they are gaining experience all of the time. Moreover, they are gaining the experience of some of the most well qualified and 'experienced' medical minds available.

This transfer and building of experience isnt just restricted to Doctors; it is equally so for the vast majority of other vocational degrees.

I'll use Lorna as another example - she has not yet qualified - yet she is doing studio work, developing a portfolio & particular skill set, she is doing laboratory processing work, using cameras and equipment most of the so-called professionals on YOP, and many other sites, could only dream of, she is learning how to run a professional business, doing assignments, dealing with clients, she is learning the technical & theoretical knowledge that underpins her craft - which is very apparent in her work, etc, all under instruction and supervision of some of the best photographers, resources, and equipment available. You don't suppose she is sat for three years with her nose in 'Digital Photography' weekly magazines and books before touching one camera and calling herself a 'professional', do you?

I wonder where experience comes from? The assumption I gain from this thread, is that you suddenly have it by not choosing to follow a credible degree programme. Nothing could be further from the truth - experience comes to us all whichever route we choose to follow - but sometimes at a cost.

What has not been addressed within this thread regarding experience is that one of the many disadvantages of gaining experience outside of higher education is that to prove your commitment or 'professional' credibility, is that you may have to work in very junior positions, often for long hours, 6 or 7 days a week, for low wages, and sometimes for no pay at all. You may well be gaining experience in a self-directed way, or even under the mentorship of someone more experienced than you. The obvious danger, in this scenario, are that you may be gaining experience of incorrect & outdated practises by an inept & unqualified mentor. There is a tongue-in-cheek truism that is banded about in professional recruiting circles that goes "Experience - it's not worth the paper it's written on". At least with a red brick University degree that risk is all but removed and the value is added, but more importantly, where it matters most, is recognised and universally accepted.

When I qualified as a teacher, noone said to me "Well done Jack, you're now a qualified but inexperienced teacher". The assumption was, and still is, that by virtue of completing a teaching degree, and gaining experience at the same time, that I would be well qualified to teach - the only thing that changed was the environment, which I learned easily to cope with by virtue of the experience of doing a degree course. Of course, since then I have gone on to gain more experience, based on a core foundation of knowledge, and have had to complete further post-grad degrees to achieve my current 'lofty' heights - why? Because experience alone was not enough!

Experience IS important, nobody is arguing against that, but to say ALL a degree is, is paper to say 'Yes, you're qualified, but don't have any experience" is utter bunkum!

I'd be interested to know if those who are decrying FE/HE have actually undertaken and completed a vocational degree course.

I did not have FE or in fact much in the way of normal education at all but I understand what you are saying and agree with you. Have always though that being involved in FE is in it's self valuable as if you do nothing else you learn how to learn from the experience of others.

When it comes to photography I find I have been taking snaps for the last 30+ years and have learnt nothing very much from reading for all those years, I have learnt more from this forum in a few months. I have tried but do not know any experienced photographers, the local councils do not have suitable courses and most forums are unfriendly to the experienced snapper who wishes to learn more technique.

Lets not forget we who have used a camera for a while are all experienced but that does not mean the results we produce are professional. Some will be happy with what they produce others will not.

I do not think it is so very important what FE you take as long as you do something IMO teaching the young adult mind to learn and absorb from mentors and books is more important than the subject.

Yes of course I do thats what I said.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

A degree is a wonderful way of gaining experience and a qualification at the same time, I hope when I graduate, I will be a photographer who can not only take excellent photographs, but one who looks behind each image and sees more. Already I am starting to do that and I'm grateful that I was given the opportunity.

Doctors have to go to University to gain experience and the academic knowledge to work, IMO someone who wants to be a pro photographer just suddenly deciding they are worthy of being within the ranks of Robert Capa or Bresson would be like a Nursing assistant suddenly declaring themselves to be a surgeon, just because they've been an NA for 20 years....

Is it a waste, to those who haven't done it, maybe! To me, no.

I'm sorry I think a degree, in the right hands, can be a wonderful thing. I also think that years of experience count for a lot!
I'd just like to pick up on something Jack said! "I'll use Lorna as another example - she has not yet qualified - yet she is doing studio work, developing a portfolio & particular skill set, she is doing laboratory processing work, using cameras and equipment most of the so-called professionals on YOP, and many other sites, could only dream of, she is learning how to run a professional business, doing assignments, dealing with clients, she is learning the technical & theoretical knowledge that underpins her craft - which is very apparent in her work, etc, all under instruction and supervision of some of the best photographers, resources, and equipment available. You don't suppose she is sat for three years with her nose in 'Digital Photography' weekly magazines and books before touching one camera and calling herself a 'professional', do you?"
I'd just like to ask Jack what he meant by SO-CALLED! I think that was quite harsh I hope he isn't having a go at members who, other people, think are good enough to pay to do a job for them.

Of course I'm happy to answer any questions, or elaborate on my comments, Finbar, but I'm not going to get drawn into a tedious debate over words and context (it's been done here and on many other forums, ad nausea).

A great deal of how you semantically define 'professional' rests with the perception of the individual 'selling a service' and also the person 'paying for the service'. Either way, simply because a paying transaction occurs, it doesn't make one a professional photographer; I'm sure you will agree.

Let me take this to another context - I qualified in art & Design in Bournemouth many many moons ago, I have designed and hosted a number of commercial and private websites, I have had photos published in newspapers and magazines, I have undertaken paid commissions, and sold artwork (watercolours & computerised graphic artwork), etc... However, I still don't consider myself a 'professional' photographer, artist, or designer. I may however conduct my business professionally, and deal with paying clients in a professional manner - Do I consider myself a 'professional' in this field - No! But what I do consider myself is qualified, experienced, and competent; albeit still with lots to learn.

Similarly, I train people and gundogs (Spaniels in particular) - to field trial standards. I do this both non-profit making - to large groups - and at a profit-making cost to individuals. I don't make a living from it - but if you ask anyone who knows me, and my approach, or has used my services, (yes, there are some on YOP who have) I still consider myself professional in how I go about my business. I even consider myself more professional in my approach and manner then some 'pro' dog trainers who train gundogs as a single source of income. But do I consider myself a 'professional' gundog trainer? No! But what I do consider myself is experienced and competent.

So as you can see - to semantically dissect the term 'professional' or as I used the term in a previous post 'so-called professional' is pretty futile, and opinions will differ, no matter what.

Perhaps I should have chosen another term instead - 'technically semi-competent'?? By way of justification, I see work on here from 'so-called professionals', who undoubtedly sell a service - but IMHO would only consider technically semi-competent; that said, although I wouldn't personally pay for the service as I see demonstrated on here - I'm sure other people would.

Am I attacking any YOP forum users? Emphatically - NO! Am I honest in my opinions - YES, and although I will voice them, I will also respect the opinions and feelings of others.

Conversely - I appreciate that there are also people who make a professional career from photography (and other fields), who I wouldn't entertain buying from, or dealing with.

I hope this has satisfied your question....and assumption, that I'm attacking anyone in particular.

Apologies for going off topic (Photography Degrees)

Also Apologies from myself for going off topic.
and thankyou for the full and frank answer to my Question.

You come to any conclusions about uni Polo?