Phil

Honestly don't listen to the others as nice as they are and replying with the best intent.
I run/own a highly successful business and I don't do it by giving away free boarding fees for first time customers.

You will earn far more respect if you charge for your photos and you can then add his company to a list of your clients. I don't know of any photographer who would give his/her services/products for free to a complete stranger, it would be different if it was for a friend or charity but a definate no no as a business transaction.

Bazza

Phil, well done I would ask for a link back to your work, with your
information. Also, maybe you should consider selling the images as prints through a website?

As for payment,I have asked quite a few togs how they started, and they all say to get themselves established they did work for free or cheaply. I have got a few of my images on different sites, all saw me on Flickr, only one has paid, and then it was only a minimal amount but early days .

Sounds like a good contact, you love taking these type of shots,so it makes sense that others who use his site may want to buy your prints if they were available . Good luck XXX

Blimey Bazza you feel very strongly about this! You can give advice but don't dis the other peoples opinions mate. You have made a very valid argument but life isn't always about business and making money. Sometimes it is about just feeling happy with your own minor achievements, the useage of your talents, being a bit charitable, or giving someone a little leg up and maybe one day that person or someone else does it for you.

This issue is widely discussed in other forums regarding travel guides etc. now exploiting the availability of 'free' photographs via amateurs using Flickr etc. I think it is simply a case of do you want to see your work used for free or not? I would expect the guy will find someone else if not you and eventually get a 'yes'. It's cheeky but that's how it is. My guess is he won't pay and move on but you may be able to negotiate some terms that he gives you the credits or maybe payment in lieu, maybe a discount on a course etc. The other thing is we give stuff for free if we enter competitions. Many give the competition organiser the right to use our pictures in connection with the competition or their business.

I don't think there is any right or wrong on this subject. If you were a professional you couldn't give stuff away but then again as amateurs what else do we take pictures for other than to hope someone else enjoys them. Otherwise we would be professionals. If you do give him pictures for his publicity then I would impose strict restrictions on size and useage so they can't be given away again or used in any situation. Could be wrong but the outward bound type people I have met tend to be making a living but mostly a balance between enjoyable job and reasonable income so unlikely some thriving business making a fortune. Well done anyway, obviously good enough to impress!

BC

What I absolutely hate is people that try and get something for nothing yet benefit greatly from other peoples hard work. How much would it cost him to go and do exactly as Phil has done? Just to buy a reasonable camera and lens alone would cost far more than paying for a couple of photos.

If he is setting up a business as he claims then there must be cost involved which he would have calculated for. Would he ask for accountants to give their services for free or take out insurance for the first time for free, or even given the first guided tour for free, would he expect printers to print brochures for free? NO of course he wouldn't, so why should he expect to use someone elses photos for free.

The brochures alone, if he did a 6 sided folded into 3 sections, would cost around £0.50 each alone buying around 2000 at a time, which you can work out for yourself =£1000. That is the average cost of good quality glossy printed ones. A years advertising in Yell would cost around the same amount also that amount in one area of Yellow Pages for a decent size advert.

Bazza

Yep, agreed, it is cheeky but almost certainly he would get a free shot from someone. Websites like flickr etc allow people to search and approach the tog and someone won't mind I'm sure. No doubt he will still be paying for his brochures.

At the end of the day Phil does it as a hobby and I'm sure he can make a decision based on his and our thoughts. If it was his livelihood then I'd guess like you he would have to charge.

like a week ago, I was asked to submit my photos to this NY guide. 2 of my shots were shortlisted. In any case I agreed to it. No payment was offered, but they were all up front w/ the info and what not.

In any case, both were picked

http://www.schmap.com/newyork/tours_...i=5390_221.jpg

http://www.schmap.com/newyork/introd...2002D15_23.jpg

really got me excited. it's not a big deal really, and it's just one of many, but what I liked was, they link back to my flickr account if you click on it.

if it's anything more than that tho, i will sure get into the nitty gritty in negotiations...

I don't fancy visiting New York, all those tall skyscrapers would make me feel hemmed in.
What I don't understand about the place is that the USA is such a vast country with so much open space, yet they have to have buildings so tall in such a confined space. It beats me.

Bazza

most ppl dont like to commute. I for one commute 2 hours a day to get to NYC. I live outside south in NJ. A lot of ppl do the same as me living outside of the city.

It is a vast country, and it's just that vast. Manhattan in itself is a small island, and the only way to really add more space is up.
the outer boroughs are also getting crammed. Not too much in terms of commerce happens outside the big cities..

I would love to visit New York - but that's off topic @ Bazza

Re topic, Bazza may well be a successful kennel owner, but he's not a pro tog selling his work - there's a big difference, so his views should be considered with that in mind.

In the creative industry, you nearly always have make deals/give-aways to get your name of the ground - when we started out we did things for silly prices, but it got us a live portfolio of work to showcase and a number of clients who went on to recommend us to others.

Ask yourself, if you want to charge him how much do you think he would actually pay for a few images (be realistic) and what if he says no- if he's a start up chances are he wont have a budget for these images. Would it be more beneficial to you to have your work out there - even if you gave them away for free...?

GTa86 - well done! Post the pics as I can't see the ones in the links.

Topic: It does suck, giving away your shots for nothing, but as what Azz said, we have to make sacrifices just to get our name out there. I've been taking photography jobs next to nothing, so as I can just get my name out there. I've sold shots here and there, but mostly because, i'm starting to get a little bit of saturation, and it's mostly because of doing free or cheap jobs.

hopefully somewhere down the line, i'll have complete command of how my images are distributed, or how much to charge per shoot, etc, etc, but starting off...you kinda have to make sacrifices. if it it's like Phil's case, the guy is probably starting off too..
who know's, maybe it's a good network...and he may come back and actually pay the next go around.

RE Links:

reposted links...

but here they are on my flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gta86/3...7616547152423/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gta86/3...7616003963298/