I think, since this is the way Yop is going, it may well be a good idea to have the options outlined above. I do still think Jackie was right in what she posted, however, options on the comments we want may be a good idea. Having said that, if you don't want critique, you post in the 'not for critique' section. If you do want critique you post in showcase, and respect what others think of your photography, while at the same time not neccesarily having to agree with them - after all - C&C is personal opinion. I *do* think it's very important that everyone is always polite, and if there's something that you don't like in a photo - you can always find *something* good - I think it's very very rare where I've seen photos that have no merit whatsoever. I think it's important to point out where the photographer has gone right as well as where they've gone wrong.

xx

Think the error being made here is the idea that you can please all of the people, you can’t. There is a choice, well there was, of looking at a forum largely populated by those who are professional or highly skilled and talk to one another in curt and technical terms (there are plenty of them about) or you use a forum based on your cameras make, these differ from unfriendly to very welcoming but are a bit limiting in their subject matter, or you used to be able to come to YOP for a friendly helpful forum for those interested in photography not matter how skilled.

Azz says not everyone wants the forum to be as it was, that is true but why join and try to change YO when there are plenty of forums out there that already offer what they want. What I am saying why join something to change it, if you don’t like the format then don’t join.

Azz writes “So the only solution I can think of is we let people say what kind of comments they want/prefer. Then for people like you who want any type of comment, can just select that option and those that don't can select whatever they want themselves.” Is that not what we have?

You can fiddle with the format as much as you like but you can’t make people behave with the interest of others in mind. You can’t make people give help and advice when it is asked for any more then you can stop people not likeing something and saying so. Ask as much as you like for comment or C & C you won’t get it unless you are deemed worthy of their time. YOP will either return to being what it was a helpful friendy forum helpful to all or it will become just like all the others, no amount of tinkering will make any difference. Strong control over those who make remark that is personal or react in a aggressive manner would help but in the end the forum is the sum total of it’s members.

People only want things to be like what they like, and that's only natural - just like how you want it to be such an such way.

That's the challenge you face when running a community orientated site like this - I've tried hard to make YoP a nice fit for everyone, from all manner of backgrounds and personalities and seriousness. And rather than choose to make YoP a 'chatty' forum with next to little attention paid on the technical aspects, or a technical forum always being serious I am trying to find a way to keep everyone happy. As I do see everyone's point of view, needs and wants.

I think we can go ahead and try this latest idea - least then we've tried it, if it doesn't work we can try something else... I am determined to get it right

I agree with lots of points that have been made, the "feel " of Yo! has changed, and keep changing it isn't going to help in the short term.

When I joined the members were smaller, but there were probably more active members then , than there is now roughly 30ish people log on each day, about the same as the beginning, only half of them comment or post.

What needs to be addressed is why?why older members no longer post, or why new members don't come back?

Yo! was unique and special , in a world of boring photography forums, were it was all technical,scary for a beginner and you could talk, Yo! was a fun forum, I learnt loads, loved the friendliness,was never nervous of showing my experiments, and loved the fact I would get feedback.

Azz you created this, you made Yo! and you did a bloody good job, but the essence of what was Yo! in the beginning, has gone, people only comment on certain peoples pics we never worried before of commenting on anyones pics, you just said what you wanted, and there was no drama.

Other forums don't need labels for this and that, the problem is the forum keeps changing, but I can now see it never needed it. It was such a great place, and now it hasn't the same feel.

As for we need more experienced togs etc, but to just gear a forum up to attract more serious togs is in my opinion a mistake, it isn't working.

We all joined Yo! to learn,to talk to others who loved photography , no matter what level. If you want to be techie all the time go to another forum, there are so many dull, techie ones were you can't talk to members in a chatty way. Everyone of us joined Yo! because of it's fun feel, not because it had the best togs in the world.

I have tech forums I use, but Yo! is my photography forum where I can kick off my shoes, have a laugh, and chat to others who like photography. But, that feeling is being lost Azz I don't want this forum to become like every other photography forum.

Azz, I think you should relax, stop fiddling, and let Yo! be what it used to be. I wanted more serious togs on here, but it hasn't worked, and it has changed Yo! into something I am not sure I like anymoreYes, I can leave if I don't like the forum, but I keep hoping that the forum can be turned around

As Jols has said , I can remember a vibrant forum, always new pics being posted, knowing if you posted a pic it would get feedback, not be ignored, the beginners pic was treated the same as a much more experienced person. I got more help and feedback when it was more relaxed, than I do now.

The thing I joined yo! for has gone, it was a fun, happy forum

Suzi xxx

Azz, it is not that I want the forum to be as it was and there is not a way that it could be, far too much water under the bridge, as I have said the ‘feel’ of a forum depends on it’s members and to some extent on the forums owner and the people chosen to help control it.

IMO the forum needs activity and in it’s present fragmented state that will not happen, people need to know that they can post a shot or give an honest opinion without personal attach and with the average chance of receiving help when it is asked for.

The work of running a forum is difficult I know that and you will never please everyone all the time but you can aim to please most on occasion. My personal feeling is that the problem does not lie with the forum as such but possibly with the complexity of choices and the lack of control over those who are rude or unnecessarily unpleasant.

You say adding more layers of choice will not hurt, well that may be so but will it encourage more friendly help and advice. If you post a shot and 4 out of 5 say nice composition but underexposed you know you have it wrong. But two dozen saying well done does nothing to help you improve. There really should be no need to protect people from others opinions why can there not be just two choices, 1/ not for comment, or 2/ Comment requested and as I said come down like a ton of bricks on those who do not follow common rules of courtesy.

Thing is you're all saying this now, but back then some people didn't like the 'negative' remarks (and I can see why). It must get tiring, thinking people are 'picking holes' all the time (when they're prob just trying to help) :-/

• Some people come on here to learn from the members here, by means of getting comments/feedback
• Some people come on here to learn, but by looking at others pics
• Some people come on here to share, and feel they don't need to 'learn' from the comments here (but may still learn by looking at others pics)

And I think that's fine, and I was always fine with that - but I do think some of us were getting complacent and started posting way too many pics with a lot of them having paid no thought to the photographic aspect at all, and they were more like snaps (I was a big culprit myself!) and what that did was push down those people photos who were paying thought. So they were put off from posting.

I do like the idea of adding a separate upload gallery, where there is a limit of one photo a day per member (and where it extracts exif data too) - that way we are forced to only upload our better shots. So perhaps we can sort of make the forums back to what they were like, and use the gallery for our showcase stuff - that should keep everyone happy! Only problem there is it adds more load to the server/running costs and responsibility to me to back things up too! I've seen other sites do it but they tend to charge for the gallery option.

Another thing we could try is to create a survey - then email all our members and ask them to fill it in. Then look at the results to see which bits they did/didn't like and what they would like to see changed. I know some people stopped posting because they thought people didn't like their pics... cos they never got any comments in their profile albums (see there's lots of things that need sorting )

Funny thing is, when I started YoP I thought it would be sooo easy. People post pics. People comment. Where's the headache in that? How wrong was I

I think my main issue is not the fact that critique happens, but the way that it's delivered in some cases. I think people need to try to make an effort not to be condescending or contrary when critique-ing photos, to make positive suggestions for improvement rather than pulling peoples work apart and focussing on the bad points.

If someone does their own edits to another persons shot, then they should ask first, and be very clear in exactly what steps they've carried out, otherwise it comes across as nothing more than showing off, and isn't going to help anyone learn at all.

I'm quite happy to receive critique, but as long as it's helpful and I can learn from it. People just saying that they like a photo is fine as well in my books, and they shouldn't be afraid to just write that if they can't think of anything else.

I must admit I'm wary of commenting on shots that are out of my "comfort zone", i.e. anything that isn't outdoor based, and am worried that just saying "yes, I like it" isn't really enough, but then feel bad for not saying anything at all..it's not that I don't like something, it's just that it's an area I don't feel I know enough about to feel able to comment.

I hope the general mood on this forum can improve I've generally found it really welcoming, but a few recent altercations have made me a bit scared to participate really.

Oooh. Azz posted at the same time as me, so some of what I wrote has already been answered!!

Lots of very good points there! I like the idea of a 1 photo upload limit per day Would make me feel less guilty about not having time to comment on all of them, and it would also mean that the forums have more of a spread of peoples work than one persons picspam.

To me it is simple, the old forum worked, we posted our pics people commented, and TBH we all muddled along . We asked for help if we wanted it, and it was given, we were always honest and polite.

As for some saying we talked too much, hellooooo, it's a forum, people talk, it was fun forum, if you want a boring one, don't join! Sorry, but the old Yo! was great, the new one, ain't working

It is getting too complicated, you now have to decide if it is a snapshot or a masterpiece. Also , now you wan to limit the gallery, does this mean that you think the pics we choose to put in our own galleries aren't up to standard? maybe some of us use our galleries to show what we have been up to, because they are wary of posting on the boards

I felt my photography grew and blossomed on the old forum, we all gave feedback, helped each other etc, don't see much of that happening now, all I see is older members drifting away, maybe Azz you should ask older members why!!!!! they left or don't post much. I really miss members like Melody, Dejavu and Samnooshka who always helped and gave me great advice, and really helped my confidence in learning, but were always honest too, but in a kind manner

I agree with Nicola, about altercations on the forum, have made me wary to post, and that some seem to have forgotten basic manners when critiquing

I know I have posted a lot in this thread, it's just that I always enjoyed Yo! and I don't want the unique essence of Yo! to be lost, just have a photo section , people comment, it's up to them to C&C or not . or they can just say nice pic, it's is as simple as that

One photo section for everyone, sometimes our first ideas , are our best, and when we try to turn something , into something different , it doesn't work It if ain't broke......


Suzi xx

I'm afraid I much preferred the "old way" too, The "banter" was fantastic, now I feel I have to post "good" pictures all the time! or no comments are posted, The lack of comments are very disheartening, I appreciate that not everyone has time to post on all pictures, myself included. It did seem more "friendlier" then, when we had threads just for chatting about life, but that does not happen now, its all about the "photo" now and not the "photographer" Bur after saying all that! I still love it here!